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BringerOfTruth

Open your eyes!

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That's right, we simply can't prove whether there is a God or not, because we simply don't know what God is, if God exists. And I do say what, and not who, because I don't believe in God as a person- a person who created mankind to his image and sent his son Jezus to save us. But to be able to prove or disprove the existance of God, you'd need to know what God is, but you can't know what God is if you're not even sure he exists. So you can't really solve this issue: to be able to prove the existance of God, you would need to know exactly what God looks like, (an objective definition of God), but you can't know what God looks like, untill you have proven God's existance and have seen God-should he exist. So it's a dead end and there is no way out of this problem. And it's the same with disproving the existance of God. You can't disprove the existance of God because you don't know what exactly you have to disprove, because if you assume that God doesn't exist, then you can't objectively say what God would look like if God did exist. Because you would only be able to know that if God did exist!! Complicated, isn't it?? :) Well, just remember this: it's a question of personal beliefs only and not of absolute truths or not-truths.

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I've been waiting for someone to do this but no one yet, so I guess I'll have to. this will make a few people happy, roel.

 

If there is a god, and he is all powerful, and all knowing and all the otehr bullshit. Then right now let him come down from the hevans and smite me! I dare you god smite me! come on! I'm still here, oh crap what was that? It sounded like NOTHING COMEING DOWN FROM THE HEAVENS AND SMITING ME!!

 

there now since I proved that he doesn't exist or doesn't listen to us, can we all do somthing else?

 

and if I don't post in a week god does exist, lol

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Keven, no offence, but that was the worst demonstration of 'proof' i have ever seen. "i dont believe lightning an strike poeple randomly, come lightning and strike me now to prove your power" Sorry, i dont buy.

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Remember we do make mistakes after and science can't be 100% you know.

 

 

We learn from our mistakes. Mistakes are essential for progress.

 

Well Roel, let's say your god for a moment ok.

 

 

That means I'm omnipotent. Now the only thing I have to do to have my creation love me, is make them love me. Like I said, I'm omnipotent, so that won't be any problem.

 

Your idea of responsibility being? Making him solve each and of our every single problem?

 

 

I get the feeling you've misinterpreted some of my posts. First of all, I don't believe in god, so in my opinion everyone should take their own responsibility. People should solve their own problems. However, in the hypothetical case where god does exist, I think god is not taking care of his own creation and lets innocent (often godloving) people suffer. So it might seem as if I'm contradicting myself, but I'm most definitely not.

 

Yes you don't believe in him, so you believe you came from stardust then?

 

 

Let me ask you question. You believe in god, right? Do you believe he came from stardust? If so, why can't I? Like I asked several time before: why do you consider it possible for a god to arise out of the blue?

 

Because of Eve's sin, we have marred the rest of the race and descendents to sin and in turn cause ourselves to suffer.

 

 

That sounds unfair. Because person A did something wrong, person B caused a problem. It's not logical, nor is it fair. I did not take a bite of that apple. It's like a teacher who keeps a whole class in detention because a former student once pulled something.

 

 

WE cause our own suffering not God.

 

 

I'm not suffering, are you? I'm perfectly happy with my life here on earth. I don't say god causes suffering, I'm saying he has the power to prevent billions of innocent people from suffering, yet he doesn't. What would you do if you witnessed someone beat an innocent person to dead? Would you just stand there and do nothing, because that's exactly what god would be guilty of doing if he existed.

 

Because he is simply not in this time.

 

 

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought he was omnipresent?

 

No one has the right claim to be atheist unless he/she can prove there is NO god.

 

 

Says who? Give me one reason to believe in something of which there is no proof! I'd be inclined to start believing if only someone could hand me some evidence. But there is no evidence and the sad thing is that nobody WANTS to look for it either. People just unthinkingly accept what is written in the bible and do not seek answers to questions like "Where does god come from?".

 

Do all of you know that this danger is in our time and our generation.

 

 

I don't want to offend anyone by saying this, but religion is the cause of many, many conflicts in the past and in the present.

 

So what should we really say, there is a god which looks and cares for us or we think we are gods ourselves. Pinch yourself hard and ask, which is more presposterous?

 

 

*OUCH* ... Neither. I don't think we are gods ourselves and I don't believe there is a god, let alone one which looks and cares for us.

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Keven, no offence, but that was the worst demonstration of 'proof' i have ever seen. "i dont believe lightning an strike poeple randomly, come lightning and strike me now to prove your power" Sorry, i dont buy.

 

 

Your reasoning is just as bad as Kevens' demonstration of proof, since lightning is something completely different from god. Lightning is not omnipotent and omnipresent for example.

 

Keven did proof something else. Since god is omniscient, he knows about this thread. Obviously god doesn't give a [censored] what Keven says. No offence intended Kev ;)

 

Roel

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good job Roel, thats the exact response I was looking for.

 

and if god is all powerfull, and could stop millions of innocent peoples suffering, but he chooses to stand by idly and watch them all die, doesn't that kind of contradict what he tells us in the bible? And if so then does that sound like the type of god you want to worship?

 

 

and if god did create everything then why did he create the other gods? because if you belive in one god who does jack all, then why not belive in other gods who made their presence know back in the day?

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and if god is all powerfull, and could stop millions of innocent peoples suffering, but he chooses to stand by idly and watch them all die, doesn't that kind of contradict what he tells us in the bible?

 

 

I don't think so. I don't think he ever signed on to babysit us! :)

 

And if so then does that sound like the type of god you want to worship?

 

 

 

If believing in this God, means that one should not kill, love one's neighbour, honour one's parents, etc., etc., then I don't exactly see a problem.

 

and if god did create everything then why did he create the other gods? because if you belive in one god who does jack all, then why not belive in other gods who made their presence know back in the day?

 

 

Huh? What Gods made their presence known?

 

James

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greek, roman, egyptian, norse,

 

and what did god do? he set a bush on fire.

 

 

also i never said anything about lightning, if god was real he could have stopped my heart, killed my brain, or even wiped me from existance, but i'm still here.

 

and i never said he should babysit us, he should just get off his lazys ass and do somthing, and don't any of you give me that "he makes life and babies and trees and the air", there is no proof he did that, at least evolution is backed by facts and logic.

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greek, roman, egyptian, norse

 

 

:D And what proof is there that these Gods made themselves known?

 

and what did god do? he set a bush on fire.

 

 

Er... I think the bible contains a bit more info than that!! Or are you referring to how he shows himself? If so would you believe an old man telling you that he was God or a bush burning and 'speaking!'

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I've tried very hard, Keven, but what exactly made you so important that God should smite you? I've been pondering for a while actually. I don't know. Maybe you're the president of something, yes?

 

And this thread has a gone a wee bit into a tangent.

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---and what did god do? he set a bush on fire.

 

You really need to read the bible before making arguments such as this. Honestly.

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doen't god love a martyr or somthing like that? he could smite me and then he'd have a few more followers or somthing.

 

read the other religons mytholigy there gods do alot more for them than your god.

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also i never said anything about lightning, if god was real he could have stopped my heart, killed my brain, or even wiped me from existance, but i'm still here.

 

 

I'm going to do the same thing you did but I'll prove god does exist....

 

If you're there god, please take the time out of your undoubtedly hectic schedule to prove your existence by doing absolutely nothing. Don't change the volume on my speakers. Don't stop my heart. Don't kill my brain. Don't wipe me from existence.

 

Wow. Nothing. God MUST exist.

 

And since he's omnipotent he MUST have read that post, and he chose to do nothing thus proving once and for all that he exists.

 

and i never said he should babysit us, he should just get off his lazys ass and do somthing, and don't any of you give me that "he makes life and babies and trees and the air", there is no proof he did that, at least evolution is backed by facts and logic.

 

 

OK. So to end all suffering he should do what?

 

Kill those responsible for hurting others - creating even more death and suffering.

Click his fingers and stop people from hurting others - removing free will.

Destroy all disease - killing one life form in favour of another (more death).Just because the life form is microscopic doesn't make it any less important, remember a few billion years ago we were but amino-acids waiting to evolve.

 

The one thing this thread has proven is that people seem to be unwilling to accept responsibilty for themselves and their own lives - believers and non-believers. There is no magical mystical force that is going to make everything in your life roses.

 

Even religious people suffer, that doesn't mean their god doesn't care about them - it just means their god isn't going to spite non-believers with afflictions just because they don't worship him.

 

Just like science, religion doesn't hold all the answers. People who believe otherwise are foolish and easily led.

 

What about the possibilty that god didn't directly create everything. He created the beginning and nothing more? Everything else (big bang, evolution) followed and he's just letting it play out.

 

I don't actually believe in god because I've not seen the evidence I require to believe in god but some of the arguments seem to be arguments for arguments sake with only a basic understanding of the other sides ideas.

 

People need to be more open minded about things. That's where progress comes from. Don't just dismiss everything because it doesn't agree with your current idea of right and wrong. Absorb it.

 

One day it might change your entire outlook on things.

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I don't see anyone replying to my second last post :)

 

 

I don't think so. I don't think he ever signed on to babysit us!

 

 

God signed for this job? Who's his manager? :)

 

Let me ask you this: What would you do if you witnessed someone beat an innocent person to dead? Would you just stand there and do nothing, because that's exactly what god would be guilty of doing if he existed.

 

 

Huh? What Gods made their presence known?

 

 

I can ask you the same question. When did the christian god make his presence known? And where was I when that happened? :)

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a local girl recently got shot for trying to break up a fight. she died shortly after.

most people would actually sit around, or look the other way

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whoa kye,

 

i think youe the worst debater I've ever seen, pulling that "god if you exist do absolutly nothing" bull [censored], and if he is all power and all that crap people feed to us, he could solve the worlds problems with a blink of his giant eye. and don't ask me what he could do to solve it, i'm not god no am I? I don't know the limit of his powers?

 

 

I end this post with a hard question

 

Can god create a bolder so big and heavy even he couldn't lift it?

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a local girl recently got shot for trying to break up a fight. she died shortly after.

most people would actually sit around, or look the other way

 

 

So you're saying you should just turn and walk away?

 

(edit)

 

I just thought of something else... If you were at the scene, would you have done nothing to help that girl?

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well if you wanted to be a god you would, why use your vast power to save the lives of lesser beings like our selves when you can just watch them squirm and suffer with the pain that you could solve instantly?

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im pointing out that for sake of personal safety people will often choose to stay out of other peoples problems. the girl was one of the kind hearts of the world, your cliche volunteer / help the needy kind of girl. i do not know what i would have done in that situation, i wasnt there.

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Roel, God didn't just walk away from his creation. He has done much for us. One, he sent Jesus to earth to be the atonement for our sin. Two, he works in changing the heart of the ones who believe in him.

 

What is the significance of the latter? The Church (the REAL Church) is the vehicle by which God chose to relieve suffering in the world. The Church is made up of people whose lives have been changed by God. These people are compelled by compassion for the little ones of the world. The people who don't have enough to eat, the ones who are sold into slavery at age 7, the ones who are kidnapped into brothels at age 14. In our world there is unspeakable evil. Believers in Jesus Christ battle against it on a daily basis.

 

God does care. And the visibility of his concern is directly proportionate to the obedience of his people. Look at the activities of the Church to see God's hand in helping the ones getting "beat up".

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what about the little boys that priests have been molesting now and again. Their faith must be strong.

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I deliberately didn't make mention of those sorts of actions eventhough I knew they would be the first thing to come to people's minds. No, I simply emphasized the REAL Church. Obviously, the preists who committed those crimes are part of the evil that believers in Christ are fighting against and not part of the Church.

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i personally feel that people put to much emphasis on the churches and the workers of them. thats now where i would expect to find god. if i pray its not going to be in a building constructed by contractors who are as likly to believe in god as to not.

 

this is one interpritation of a verse (there are many) that im sure you all(mostly) know

The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in buildings of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift a stone and you will find me.

 

another

Jesus said(apparently): If your leaders say to you 'Look! The Kingdom is in the heavens!" Then the birds will be there before you are. If they say that the Kingdom is in the sea, then the fish will be there before you are. Rather, the Kingdom is within you and it is outside of you.

 

i feel there are 2 types of religious (sane)people, the ones who truely belive and dont need a church to converse with god or study the religion. and the ones who blindly follow using the church as a crutch. its pretty easy to see the difference. And no im not saying everyone who goes to church uses it as a crutch. And i sa 'sane' because of religous cult followings that are obviouslly thought up by delusional people.

 

also on a slight tangent, If any of you have read the book 'night world' by f paul wilson, it(while obviously fiction) might give you some insight on to how reliegions may have been bourn.

 

and on another slight tangent, if you really are interested in the subject, i suggest that you read up on wicca and other 'of the earth' religions, they have very obvious simularities with many religions, in fact many religions are similar in more than a few ways. Think of religion like a family tree. all the branches and offshoots trace back to an origional trunk.

 

just a few things to think about. My personal beliefe isnt that the religion is to blame for those priests. Those 'men' obviously are not true of heart. Thats not religions fault

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Well the question of god has been an on going disscusion for centuries if not longer. Many claim god is there. Many claim he is not. Why argue over some ones beliefs if one is not going to change or see the other side of the story. I know I my self have studied religions to see what I believed. I know I could go in to long lengths about what I feel is right. Is it really right. Maybe, maybe not. Who is to judge me on that. Not you but my self. If there is a god and he has to judge us. Then I think I don't have it so bad since we judge our selves a lot harder then any god or person would. but like i said on a previous posting I have to do something a bit more productive right now.

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