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Wile I don't agree with what keeb is saying (and feel that it's merely popular conspiracy theory tripe), I don't think that the decapitation is unbelieveable because of the proximity of it to the torture scandal. The people on the video said it was retailiation for the way that Iraqi prisoners had been treated by the coalition troops.

 

It's not coincidence at all; it's cause and effect.

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No... wait... I dont' even want to know your idiot opinion.

 

 

Yeah, chill down Siegmund. Your opinion is just as good as any other. Although I have to agree on this one. I don't believe the video was fake either. It's sick and disgusting.

 

I'm completely [censored] done with this thread.

 

 

Well, it's starting to get a bit grim and since it already was offtopic to begin with perhaps we should stop discussing this matter. It doesn't seem like we're ever going to agree on this subject. Like I said, I love the US, but I totally disagree with the current administration. Same goes for my own country with our Harry Potter lookalike prime minister. :)

 

keeb, you're lucky I haven't invented a way to beat the living [censored] out of someone OVER the internet, cuz you'd be swallowing your teeth right now.

 

 

Well, while you at it why don't you make him take his clothes off and pull a paper bag over his head.... geesh, I can imagine you disagree with someone, but I don't see why that should result in an immediate deathwish for anyone. :)

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haha me explaining these " truths "

 

i can give you facts demeaning science and religion all you want. i completely understand someones optisism towards faith, but i know its not the other way around.

 

ive had things happen that id rather not get into that cements my faith completely, arguing it will lead us no where

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Keep Holland Drug free.Don't deliver more than a freighter-load at a time:

 

Roel' The argument between Chrono and Trollface, is weird.

 

I mean' it's like watching an Iguana and a fox terrier fight with each other, on two sides of a pane of glass.

 

One is saying stuff I can't understand and the other is saying he's winning?

 

:confused:

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Hello all, I found this site a year back after a post I came across on another forum mentioned John Titor and all the baggage that goes along with it.

 

Given the politcal climate we found ourselves in a year ago and even moreso today, the message John had spread intrigued me even though I felt it to be a Hoax.

 

 

At any rate, I would like to respond to Keeb in regards to the beheading. I posted this on another forum so I am just going to paste it here.

This is a copy of as post I made at Infidels.org , and was directed moreso at that target audience.

 

 

 

 

Based on the underlying evidence as shown within the video and the testimonies of those that have had experience with cutting and/or decpapitating other lifeforms, there should be no doubt that this an actual beheading. The simplest answer sometimes makes the most sense and ones emotions, political leanings, religion etc should not come into play when presented with the cold hard facts.

 

 

I have watched the video and there is clearly a pool of blood that forms and grows larger as Berg is laying on his side. The resolution isnt the best to make out the texture and color of the blood, but the fluidic motion is consistent with what one would expext.

 

 

Al Queda or an umbrella group that would use the Trade Mark Al Queda (as thier cause within the Ummah) name have in the past, i.e. (The Russian Soldier Beheading) commited and taped many other beheadings. When I watched the Russian decapitation, he was laying on the ground face up and there was no discernable blood spurting then in it either.

 

 

Also, given the culture in the Middle East, all lifeforms are killed in this way per Islam i.e. Halal killing so they killed him by beheading not because of the scare tactic but because they were holy mujahid fighters that performed everything to the T within Islam, and this is one of them.

 

 

 

047 ( Muhammad) .004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/20835.htm

 

CHOPPING HEADS

 

By AMIR TAHERI

 

May 14, 2004 -- THE murder of Nick Berg, a 26-year-old American businessman, by a group of Islamist terrorists in Iraq continues to send shock waves through much of the West. What has impressed most people is the fact that the terrorists cut Mr. Berg's head in the way that sheep are beheaded at the annual Feast of the Sacrifice.

 

Berg is, of course, not the first to be murdered in such a gruesome manner. Nor, alas, is he likely to be the last. For the cutting of heads (in Arabic, qata al-raas) has been the favorite form of Islamist execution for more than 14 centuries.

 

In the famous battles of early Islam, with the Prophet personally in command of the army of believers, the heads of enemy generals and soldiers were often cut off and put on sticks to be shown around villages and towns as a warning to potential adversaries.

 

In 680, the Prophet's favorite grandson, Hussein bin Ali, had his head chopped off in Karbala, central Iraq, by the soldiers of the Caliph Yazid. The severed head was put on a silver platter and sent to Damascus, Yazid's capital, before being sent further to Cairo for inspection by the Governor of Egypt. The Caliph's soldiers also cut off the heads of all of Hussein's 71 male companions, including the one-year-old baby boy Ali-Asghar.

 

Islamic history is full of chopped heads being sent around by special delivery to reassure rulers, to terrorize foes and to impress the common folk. In 1821, the Qajar king of Persia ordered a week of celebrations when he received the severed head of a Russian general who had been captured in a battle near Baku. In 1842, the Afghans massacred the British garrison in Kabul, a total of 2,000 men and their wives and children, chopping off their heads and putting them on sticks to decorate the city. (They allowed one man to leave to report to the British.)

 

In 1885, it was the turn of British Gen. Gordon to have his head chopped off and put on a stick in Khartoum after it had fallen to the forces of the Mahdi. Slightly later, Mullah Hassan, the Somali rebel known to the British as "the mad mullah" but to his fanatical supporters as "the Shah," made a habit of chopping Western heads in what is now Somalia. At one point he had a large collection of severed Italian and British heads.

 

Iran's Khomeinist mullahs also love severed heads. In April 1980, Ayatollah Sadeq Khalkhali wanted to cut off the heads of eight American soldiers who had died in a failed hostage rescue mission in the Iranian desert. He was prevented from doing so thanks to a last minute intervention by the Swiss government. In 1986, the Khomeinist mullahs cut off the head of William Buckley, the CIA's Beirut station chief who had been kidnapped by the Hezbollah and sent to Tehran for interrogation.

 

And in 1992, the mullahs sent a "specialist" to cut off the head of Shapour Bakhtiar, the shah's last prime minister, in a suburb of Paris. When the news broke, Hashemi Rafsanjani, then president of the Islamic Republic, publicly thanked Allah for having allowed "the severing of the head of the snake."

 

In 1993, Fereidun Farrokhzad, one of Iran's most famous pop stars, had his head chopped off in Germany by a Khomeinist hit squad after the mullahs issued a fatwa for his murder.

 

Chopping off heads was widely practiced throughout the Afghan wars of the 1980s. An estimated 3,000 Soviet soldiers, many of them Muslims, had their heads cut off by the Mujahedeen, who at the time enjoyed U.S. and other Western support. (In other cases the Mujahedeen cut off the testicles of the Soviet soldiers and fed them to other Soviet prisoners.)

 

Needless to say, rival Mujahedeen also chopped off each other's heads. The group led by one Haji Akbari was especially notorious in that respect. One of its members was Osama bin Laden.

 

Throughout the 1990s, head-chopping was routinely carried out by the Army for Islamic Salvation (AIS), the Islamic Armed Group (GIA), the Salafi Group for Preaching and Armed Jihad (GSPAJ) and other Islamist terror outfits.

 

One Algerian specialist in slitting throats and cutting off heads was known as Momo le Nain (Muhammad the Midget). He was a 20-plus-year-old butcher's apprentice recruited by the GIA for the purpose of cutting off people's heads. In 1996 in Ben-Talha, a suburb of the capital Algiers, Momo cut off a record 86 heads in one night, including the heads of more than a dozen children.

 

In recognition of his exemplary act of piety, the GIA sent him to Mecca for pilgrimage. Last time we checked, Momo was still at large somewhere in Algeria.

 

Four years ago, Iran was shocked by the murder of the well-known dissident leader Dariush Foruhar and his wife Parvaneh. The couple, in their 70s, had their heads chopped off and displayed on their mantelpiece. The regime blamed "rogue elements" within its Ministry for Intelligence and Security. But no one was punished.

 

Cutting heads is frequently practiced against clerics from non-Islamic faiths or even rival Islamic sects. At least four Christian priests and nine Sunni Muslim muftis have been murdered in that way in Iran since 2001.

 

In Pakistan, rival Sunni and Shiite groups have made a habit of sending cut-off heads of each other's activists by special delivery. By one estimate, over 400 heads have been chopped off and mailed since 1990.

 

Chopping heads is also practiced by Muslim militants on the Indonesian island of Borneo as a means of driving the Christian majority out. It has been effective in forcing nearly half of the island's Christians packing.

 

At one point in the 1980s, the Abu-Sayyaf Islamist group in Mindanao, The Philippines, used the tactic of severing heads as a means of terrorizing the security forces.

 

Americans should also remember Daniel Pearl, the Wall Street Journal reporter who was brutally murdered in the same way in Pakistan over two years ago.

 

Although head-chopping is now seen as a mode of communication between Islamist militants and the Western world, the overwhelming victims have been Muslims.

 

Mankind has a natural propensity to become used to the worst atrocities and factor in the cruelest facts of life. But the sight of a severed head will continue to shock even the most blas of the cynics. This is why those who are defying the whole of humanity in this war on terrorism are certain to continue to employ people like Momo le Nai

 

 

 

..In the famous battles of early Islam, with the Prophet personally in command of the army of believers, the heads of enemy generals and soldiers were often cut off and put on sticks to be shown around villages and towns as a warning to potential adversaries.

 

In 680, the Prophet's favorite grandson, Hussein bin Ali, had his head chopped off in Karbala, central Iraq, by the soldiers of the Caliph Yazid. The severed head was put on a silver platter and sent to Damascus, Yazid's capital, before being sent further to Cairo for inspection by the Governor of Egypt. The Caliph's soldiers also cut off the heads of all of Hussein's 71 male companions, including the one-year-old baby boy Ali-Asghar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

From FaithFreedom

 

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopi...=asc&highlight=

 

 

Posted by Storm:

 

Sorry, my message was written in haste, my co-workers were all gathered around me like the intrusive, nosy, arab, baboons they are demanding to know what I was writing. Thankfully, they're all uneducated ass-monkeys that don't speak or understand a word of English.

 

The whole department I work in watched it, people from other floors came in and watched it. They enjoyed it immensely, proclaiming it to be a "halal debiha" = islamic slaughter.

 

"He was just an american SOB."

 

"I hope we kill more of them."

 

"This is the funniest thing I have ever seen, thanks Storm!"

 

"Storm, you've brought happiness to my heart with this video."

 

"This is a propaganda video made to make muslims look bad."

 

 

 

 

These are some of the comments I received. One single person said in a meek, timid voice "but that's just wrong, he was innocent", naturally everyone else attacked him calling him a [Edited Out].

 

This is the mindest we are dealing with. People devoid of humanity that cheer on at the death of innocents. Strangely enough, when muslims kill muslims, deafening silence engulfs the arab/muslim world. Hypocrisy at it's best. These are a people that will proclaim "brotherhood" when violence is involved, but will remain in steadfast silence when it comes to self-criticism or introspection.

 

Morally bankrupt doesn't even begin to describe arab muslims.

 

I suspect this will lead to a surge of hate crimes against arabs in the US, just like we saw after 9/11.

 

I just hope the perpetrators choose their targets carefully and not harm an innocent Sikh, Hindu or dark skinned Latino.

 

The US needs to change it's policies in iraq and shift into high gear, either make the place into a huge parking lot, or just set up an authorative government as quickly as possible and get the f*** outta dodge.

 

 

 

-Storm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first News Organization to doubt the veracity of the beheading was non other than Al Jazaeera that caters exclusively to the Arab World, which by the way is not biased enough to some of the Muslims I have talked to, claiming that Al Jazaaera is a Zionist Sponsored Outlet to infiltrate the Arab World.

 

Note: There were hardly any reports on the beheading when it first happened, the Arav newspapers were mostly silent...until now when they could try to refute the beheading. Al Jazeera had an article that said "Bloggers doubt the beheading because of the absence of blood"...neat, so we should all run to blogs of our flavor and submit all the info in terms of political views to CNN, Fox , NPR etc

 

Personally, I have no problem with the ideas that a) the fact that much of the Middle Eastern press is government-owned and heavily censored tends to promote a bent towards conspiracy theory amongst its readership many Muslims are shocked by the apparent savagery of the act to the point that they would prefer to believe that no sensible person of the faith would really carry out such an act , and that it must have staged or manipulated bby someone other than who claimed to have done it. This is perfectly understandable; hardly anyone owuld consider David Koresh, for example to have been representative of the Christian faith.

 

 

 

 

From the Straight Dope:

 

 

 

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=255994

 

Does Al-Jazeera Speculation that there was not enough Blood have any value?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

El_Kabong

Charter Member

 

Join Date: Aug 2000

Posts: 2,585

Location: Spider Ranch, TX, USA

Ok, I'll mention this one too; y'all can decide for yourselves whether it's relevant or not.

 

In 1988 I worked on an oil rig offshore Tunisia; while the rig was operated by a US contractor the drilling crews were hired locally. Prior to the start of drilling, a goat was sacrificed on the drill floor, and apparently to ensure the success of the operations following. This was done with the full permission of the US-based oil company company that had contracted the rig, basically as a gesture to the local personnel.

 

The sacrificing was done by slitting the goat's throat. As I recall, the goat kicked weakly a few times, but stopped moving within a few seconds, although it peed all over the place as the cutting occurred. There was some blood, but it did not jet out, nor did it flow in gushes.

 

BTW, the well went two months over the planned 80-day drilling time, and thus well over budget. OTOH, the crews thus got two months' extra pay, so I guess they felt the sacrifical ceremony benefited them.

 

 

 

 

 

Lemur866

Charter Member

 

Join Date: Jul 2000

Posts: 2,862

Location: The Middle of Puget Sound

Let me put it this way. I've decapitated many a chicken in my life. Some spray blood everywhere. Some let out a few dribbles. I don't know why some bleed out like crazy and others don't but it doesn't seem to me to be inevitable that a decapitation must be accompanied by a rush of blood.

 

 

 

 

 

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? The idea is that the simplest explanation is to be preferred unless there is evidence to rule it out. The fact that faces are covered in the video (which I haven't seen and won't see) is completely consistent with commonly-seen pictures of radical Islamists in the West Bank/Gaza, also with faces covered. When Daniel Pearl was killed in a similar way, only the hands of the murderer were shown. Mullah Omar of the Taliban is never seen-- there's something like one grainy picture of him in existence.

 

 

 

The Beheading of the Russian showed no blood gushing out either, care to explain this as well?

 

 

Perhaps it was a fake as well.

 

 

I"ll say it again, based on the history of the some of these "holy warriors" the simplest explanation remains regardless of your emotional leanings.

 

 

 

 

Hooboy !!

Veteran User

 

 

Join Date: August 2003

Location: Arizona

Posts: 1,416

 

Have any of you ever slit the throat of a living thing? I have. Blood does not always go spurting all over the place. If done properly, blood pressure to the brain is lost immediately, resulting in instant unconsciousness and death is almost instantaneous. The heart may or may not continue beating. Regardless, overall blood pressure drops to near zero almost instantly given that the closed circulatory system is fully compromised. The heart is not capable of "sucking" the blood out of the body cavity and squirting it all over the place. I have seen a carotid artery cut, and there is certainly a lot of blood lost, but in that case, only one was cut and the system was not fully compromised. In a case like this (there are several arteries in your body where this could occur BTW) death is a result of "bleeding out". If you cut the throat properly, there is no "bleeding out".

 

The wheezing sound is normal as the lungs are collapsed by the weight of the body pressing against the diaphram and air is forced out of the lungs and through the exposed airway.

 

Personally, I think the guy was heavily sedated. No way a person would sit there so calmly. It would also explain why there was so little blood... abnormally low blood pressure to begin with

 

 

 

 

 

Jimmy Higgins

Veteran User

 

 

Join Date: February 2001

Location: In the present

Posts: 4,178

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Primordial Groove

At this time, I see no evidence to suggest he was not alive when his head was chopped off.

The fact that just one guy didn't do it himself is quite evidence enough to tell me that Berg was alive. The other men were bracing Berg. As far as the whole blood spurting, isn't it an issue of continuity. Man, I don't want to bring engineering into this. But flow rate is constant. You take a hose under pressure and [Edited Out] a hole. Water will spurt out. You cut clean through the hose, the water just runs out. Same thing here. Its hard to see, and I was looking because I pondered it could be fake, but the pool of blood gets larger and larger.

 

And to those who didn't think that was the worst thing they've seen when compared to movies, remember this, the last thing Berg ever knew was the sharp blade of the knife cutting into his neck. And then realize that this ain't no freakin' movie. This was real!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

dragoon

New User

 

 

Join Date: December 2003

Location: Santa Maria, CA

Posts: 52

 

OK, here's another piece of anecdotal evidence for what's it's worth.

 

On two occasions I had to cut the throats of badly injured pigs because no other instrument of execution was available. (lethal injections and firearms are sooooo much more a pleasant way of doing these things, BTW)

 

I too was surprised at how little "effusion of blood" there was especially when I expected them to "bleed like stuck pigs."

 

I have purposely NOT seen the horrific video, but I am of the opinion that it is very likely that the evil deed was done as claimed.

 

 

 

 

Pete Harcoff

Veteran User

 

 

Join Date: January 2003

Location: Canada

Posts: 666

 

*** somewhat graphic description of video ahead ***

 

When I first watched the video, I too wonder if he was alive during it because of his lack of movement. But if you look closely, you can see him moving a little bit while they are reading their statement (especially right before they pull out the knife).

 

Then when they are cutting his head off, you can see his face has tightened into a grimace, but his features go slack a little bit later.

 

And while the video is pretty grainy, it does look like there is a pretty big pool of blood at the end of it.

 

And then there's the audio, which while pretty out-of-synch on the video I saw, you could here screaming which turned into gurgled screaming and then nothing...

 

So yeah, it looks to me like he was alive during this.

 

 

 

Jacob Aliet

Veteran User

 

 

Join Date: February 2001

Location: ""

Posts: 2,031

 

Well, I have slaughtered a bull more than once. I believe the BP of a bull is higher and the body bigger and stronger. The blood does flow. A lot. But typically it doesnt spatter on everyone. And certainly not everywhere.

 

 

Also check out Ummah.com and Shiachat.com for some real winning posts

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Wait, wait, so you're saying that only half of what Titor said was true?

 

So what is right is right and what isn't is pure fabrications on his part?

 

Wow, you know, I thought it was dumb before, but now, you topped it.

Because not only is stuff going to happen differently than he predicted, because its just not true... but now, you're saying its not happening because he lied, not because he's just not from the future.

 

Man, you're an idiot. No offense, but jeez, you're such an idiot.

 

Sorry, I just couln't hold that in.

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Why warn of the game as it is played out in the way it always has been?

Press rewind or fastforward....Swing to alpha or omega.

 

The only rule is do what you will.

 

If life is pain, and great beauty is born of great pain;

than what is born of great indulgence?

What is born of the fable of eden?

 

God vs Devil

Yin vs Yang

You vs you.

 

Do as you will.

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zerubbabel,

 

Sorry for the delay in responding to your description of the prophecy, I haven't been online for a week or so. Thanks for the explination of what it's about. I think I might well check out the book, when reading your description 'buddism' pop up in my head, must have been all that talk of syncranosity. well I have a basic knowlege of the idea now, so thanks for the intro to the sbject , I appresiate it.

 

keep it sweet, The Pin Men :D

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Sumeria_Incarnat,

 

There is a basic flaw in your statement which(fortunately or unfortunately--depending upon your point of view) changes other parts of the "equation". That basic flaw is "God vs Devil". This is just a construct. "I am God and there is no other". The "Devil" is not the adversary of God. Not even close. God has NO adversary. It should read Devil vs man, yin-yang, you vs you. The power level reaches no higher than this.

 

Of course, great indulgence results in great poverty. The "fable" of Eden results in death. Ironically, these are things to be "sought after" to become like Alpha and Omega--to live. What you say sounds compelling. This is why I believe that East must truly meet west. Somewhere in the middle lies the "truth".

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Look, what I've seen said and I believe rings true is that we don't need a time traveler, we need better media and history books. Obviously there's a lot of negative events occuring, and at some point in time, they're going to come to a head. The people who didn't understand or care about that before aren't likely to be swayed by a time traveler who makes no effort to prove himself genuine.

 

Anyway, I just think any time traveler really trying to change the world through these or similar means doesn't understand what will likely lead (led already for you) the world to its misfortune. You may know the history, but really don't seem to understand the mentality of the people that allowed it to transpire.

 

You would be much better off appealing in a manner that would garner the attention of media moguls and world leaders.

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