Re: Choices & Free Will
Now let me give an example that will set the stage for some of my rebuttals to your later thoughts:
Either your psychic or know me to well by now .
I grew up in Ohio, and not too far from settlements of Amish and Quaker people. Proud, hard-working people who have strong ethical and moral codes within their communities. Yet these two communities also represent excellent case studies with regard to the advanced technology/communications example I gave above. Neither of these groups of people "accept" (i.e. choose to utilize) various aspects of modern technologies... the Amish much moreso than the Quakers, but the point is to show a gamut of possibilities of choices from our "typical" US culture, to the subculture of the Quakers, to the extreme stances of the Amish.
That's great, if they know the pit falls that the technology could lead to their way of life, more power to them.
However, who said anything about the technology for Time Travel would just be a mechanical one?
No-no my good friend, the answer is a lot closer then you may think. For many thousands of years of human thought, we have only hinted to it's surface, but could never penetrate it.
The big picture has always remained though. And many such as your self believe in the connection to this idea. Thus a New Age approach is applied to this and other concepts.
What exactly is the TTA suggesting?
I have never limited my belief that TT would be wrong and come to pass in just 1 form, i.e. strapping one's self to a device.
Allow me to clarify my self, by citing the following posts from you:
'Vibration, Consciousness, 2012, & TT Hoaxes' thread:
Several of us here have talked about vibrations, frequencies, resonance and how (scientifically) these concepts of CYCLES are intimately linked with TIME. We can easily witness the energetic power of change that is realized by harmonics and resonance. Not only are these aspects of cycles central to making music (which can affect our emotions in "positive" and "negative" ways), but we also know from mechanics that NATURAL FREQUENCIES at which bodies RESONANT are the points where maximum mechanical energy is released. There are a great many other examples of harmonics and resonance that we can cite from our technologies of today, but these are on a "microcosmic" scale when we consider our solar system, or our galaxy, or even our entire universe.
The important connection we need to make is that the POWER OF CYCLES (harmonics/resonance) that we observe in the microcosm is also one of the major governing factors of our cosmos on a macocosmic scale. That is literally what 2012 is all about. As scientifically shown in other threads, with other links, the Mayan calendar ends its 13th baktun cycle in 2012, and that corresponds to a special "point in time" that marks a changing from the old cycle to the new cycle. Since our earth, and our solar system, and our galaxy (and indeed our entire universe) operate on cycles, then it stands to reason there are points of "resonance" where the ways in which energy expresses itself in the physical domain are different.... are amplified (just like a NATURAL RESONANT FREQUENCY). And it is further no accident or coincidence that our rapid technological maturity here in the INFORMATION age is reaching quite a crecendo as we approach 2012. It is no accident that we have now completely "sequenced" (cycled?) the human genome prior to 2012. And the human genome, as we know, is the "INFORMATION storehouse" for what constitutes humanity.
It's a fascinating read, anyone can read the rest for themselves if they wish.
You further mention this on the 'Consciousness, Cosmology, & Gravity-Jack Sarfatti' thread:
â€¦.The aphysical Spirit/Soul/Mind are equal and opposite to the physical Mass/Space/Time. It is an eternal "dance" between the two... one might say an eternal OSCILLATION!
And when we start understanding that our aphysical selves are constantly in an oscillation with the equal and opposite physical Massive SpaceTime, this is where we come to understand just how important FREQUENCY DYNAMICS and FREQUENCY RESPONSE and HARMONICS becomes to understanding how to move beyond our current technology. Our science currently has a good handle on Harmonic Resonance and its effects in the physical measures of Mass, Space, and Time. What we must now come to understand is how Mind couples to Massive SpaceTime, and how we can use the principles of Harmonic Resonance between these two elements to achieve "miracles" (i.e. technologies which were previously branded as "miracles" in spiritual texts).
Yet, yesterday you said this:
However, as a man of science, I must ask "but is this the way that nature will ALLOW such a technology to be actualized?" I do not believe so, because it would literally involve having complete control over ALL Mass, Space, and Time in the universe... and the universe just does not work this way when it comes to control... when you gain tighter control of one aspect of a situation, you necessarily lose some other aspect of control over the situation. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is another way of stating this: The more accurately I know a particle's position, the less accurately I know its momentum. Beyond this argument, the amount of Energy needed to be able to control all Mass, Time, and Space would be larger than the total amount of Energy represented by the universe itself (using a thermodynamic entropy view). Finally, we will really have to examine the intricacies of human free will to know if it is ever possible to totally violate one's free will (which is different than just influencing it).
So which way would nature allow it now Ray?
Ok, let's take a different approach with the Ethics of Time Travel; let's say this is how it works.
A vast Temporal Network exists with consciousnesses in harmony, suppose we tap into it, and 'influence' the masses through it.
Not as polished as your posts were, but hey it's been 3 yrs. since I last debated this issue.
A fair enough example. And IF TT were to manifest in such a way as this, where one could completely subjugate human free will, then the USE of it to do this would certainly be unethical to me. However, I am far from convinced both that the laws of the universe would permit it to manifest this way, and that the human free will is as limited as such an example would seem to imply. The issue is "COMPLETE command of their lives" vs. the ability to "influence their lives" in one, or a handful, of ways. To me, the latter is the only real possibility because of the control/Heisenberg arguments I have provided above.
Given your vast knowledge and familiarity with your beliefs Ray, I want you to tell me there is no possible way for Time Travel to manifest it's self through those routes you previously make mention of, and be exploited to influence lives.
But I am sure you must see where this argument leads! One cannot have advancement without also creating a risk. IOW, the "bad" necessarily comes with the "good". So I would equate this type of argument with being equivalent to "even though we could potentially save a great many lives with stem cell research, there are evils associated with it that people could exploit. Therefore, we should not develop the technology at all." And this line of reasoning doesn't end with one technology, but extends to ALL technologies. This was why I wanted to stress my point about the USE of a technology being the basis of ethics, because it points out that ANY technology can be abused... and is the potential for abuse so bad that we would also not want to avail ourselves of the benefits?
Ok, given that there are no absolutes in the universe and in human inferences; and that risks come with the use of certain technologies, wouldn't something that guarantee's 100% NO risk at using it and 100% results, wouldn't it be worthwhile & beneficial to use?
OK, again I see you agreeing with my point. It is not about the technology, it is about its use. And I certainly agree that you can pose hypotheticals which would show how any technology can be used for good or evil, as you have done here. What I do not see is a convincing argument that: (a) TT will manifest in the "complete control" means you describe, and more importantly (b) Why you think the potential for evil use of a technology could not be mitigated so that we could enjoy the benefits it may hold.
In response to (a): tell me RMT, based on what you believe about Massive Space & Time, and oscillation etcâ€¦, how can influence and manipulation & exploitation by these means not lead to eventual 'complete control?'
(b) Ok, let me clarify on what I think Evil is:
Evil to me, is messing with someone in an unfair and unethical way and not accepting accountability for it or attempting to recognize the error, i.e. stealing, cheating, lying, rape, manipulating their time line and their loved ones.
What we do presently and what we don't do, with the use of a technology in an evil way is determined and regulated by the laws governing us. With the exception of those with conviction to follow a personal philosophy of "Do unto others..."
If those laws were to ever change and become arbitrary, let's say no more rights to bare arms, legalized same-sex marriage and other things the current consensus see's as wrong, wouldn't future generations see this as social acceptance of what they would define and think evil, wrong & unethical practices are? Thus, technology once deemed inappropriate, now becomes part of the mainstream norms.
So when I mean unethical and evil use of this technology, I mean it's evil right now. The benefits are not felt here in the present for us, but in the future (or hereafter). However, the ramifications of those changes in the present, violating human freewill and those who can attest to the symptoms of this approach, is evilâ€¦ though not according to the laws of the future.
I see you arguing in generalities, rather than specifics. And the "generality" that I must oppose is based on the notion that the manifestation of TT would allow any form of "complete control" over a person, a society, or the events they live through.
Sorry about that (here's another), it's probably a habit of my Jehovah's Witness upbringing, my Alien abductions, my extensive and pricey Co$ training, the voices, the numbers, psychic visions and we can't forget Temporal phasing.
The WHOLE universe operates on ACTION/REACTION. As such, I think it would be a bit naieve to assume that TT could manifest in such a way that "we, the user" of the tech would have complete control over the "ACTION" part of its use, and that there would be no REACTION that "we, the user" would have to contend with.
For example, I brough up causality violation earlier in this thread, and it is a perfect phenomenon to discuss in terms of TT manifestation. I wonder if you could answer these questions:
1) Do you believe that TT will manifest in such a way that the "TT user" could violate causality?
2) If you believe so, then do you not think the violation of causality will result in some natural "reaction" of the universe which the "TT user" (or his technology) would have no control over?
In response to questions:
1) Based on my experience with TT manifestations, I came very close one time in my youth, to pin pointing and unraveling a paradoxal experience in one of my very intense Temporal shifts/phases. Let me try and describe it: you take a djÃ vu experience many experience briefly, but combine it with voices and other physical reactions, i.e. head ache, goosebumps, nausea. The situation was very vivid; I recall I found my self also re-experiencing the voice in the experience, and taking strong measures previously to counter them the last time, from occurring again this time. I had an actual dialogue with this voice & my self, I was given instructions on what to attempt, and a strong mental block was automatically erected in anticipation of the subjugation of my will and numerical synchronization to this experience on 'queue.' Perhaps this struggle and the manifestation it's caused to keep an exclusive frame of mind from experiencing this and failed and letting me know of the previous trial and errors, is a sign of causality.
2) For me, the subtleness of control is felt in an amplified manner. I doubt many would feel and react to the control the way I did. The reaction I had previously taken, coupled with a strong conviction of freewill, was not only the reason why the TTA was created, but because of the manifestations that many could also be experiencing and feel about freewill, versus those who forfeit it; an opposing view to TT/Alien's/& new age doctrine needed to be known.
As for causing causality for the user in the future and the universe, I believe that's the whole point.
â€¦.Namely, I do not think we can realistically pass a "believeable" ethical stance on TT technology UNTIL we know its mechanization AND, more importantly, its LIMITATIONS. We FIRST need to know "what is possible and what is not possible", because the "what is not possible" part will certainly shape any emergent ethics about the technology. Furthermore, the "what is not possible" will inform us about how the universe will exhibit a natural response to manipulation of Time. For example, causality violation. IF we can develop a technology for TT that would allow us to violate causality, what would be the response of the universe? For all I know, it could completely annihiliate the TT user (or worse).
Perhaps the universe is designed to compensate and tolerate anomalies & causalities, we yet don't know. If it's able to maintain stability through the chaos of a million atomic explosions, the vast gravity of black holes and devastating effects of anti-matter, why would one little change in time, cause it much of any harm to react, rather then for the direct correlating intended subject?
The technology we currently yield, does cause much irreversible changes when implemented, significant natural changes to our (Earthly) universe are clearly noted as a reaction. But again, are we talking about a Time Travel device that can have a devastating impact on the universe and have an anti-time effect if causality levels are to severe? Does a volcano explosion cause a chain reaction throughout the globe affecting all land til eventually it will explode, or is the effect only localized within a certain radius, and all life surrounding the incursion goes on, or adapts to the changes?
Perhaps we should consider TT technology not solely dependent on space & time in relation to it's effect on the universe and causing causalities in the physical sense, but perhaps on a dimension that is accessible and able to be exploited and cause very little harm or reaction to the universe that can also influence those who inhabit space & time. Consider this notion, my Temporal by-pass theory.
I respectfully disagree, and the reason I disagree can be summed-up in another time-honored cliche that we use in systems engineering quite a bit:
"You don't know what you don't know. And not knowing what you don't know is a serious impediment to you knowing whether what you are doing is 'right'."
IMO, we need to "know" a lot more about how we MAY be able to manipulate Time, and how the universe will react, before we can understand its moral implications.
RMT, I think given the information I have layed out on this post, and citing your beliefs, I think you may be able to find a clear correlation & link to what we are really dealing with here.
I am only sorry that I cannot currently be as thorough in my description and postings as I could have been years ago. One of the prices I had to pay for re-gaining my sanity and living a normal life away from Time Travel.
Yes, I am glad to say that I have not experienced a temporal shift, manifestations and any majorly strong psychic visions in years. I still experience some numerical synchronicities with the double digits once and a while though.
Well, let's hope that by switching gears a bit here, it can give us a clearer meaning of the Ethics of Time Travel.
Til then, it's your move RMT .